Marvin Shilmer

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Posts by Marvin Shilmer

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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  It does in principle state that even when there is one witness, a man can be put to death.

  The text never suggests that. Rather, your presuming that in order to force a bifurcation. This is the making of a false dilemma.

  The basis for putting the man to death is not mentioned.

  Then it is false to say "in principle even when there is one witness, a man can be put to death".

  This is what Mr. Angus wanted Mr. Jackson to explore as it seems to deviate from the position that an allegation can only be acted upon when there are two witnesses. In that situation, the man can confess. Then there would be the two witnesses required for executing him. Mr. Jackson would have said that to get out of the noose.

  I'm sure Stewart wanted Jackson to explore alternate means of achieving justice for a victim. That's fine. My point is that using the text of Deuteronomy 22 was a gamble because that text does not suggest any person would be punished based solely on an allegation made by one person. It's just not in the text. You have to read that into the text to put it there.

  A secondary point, but revealing nevertheless, is that His Highness, Mr. Guardian-of-Doctrine Jackson failed to see the blatant false dilemma when it was presented to him supposedly with scriptural merit. How can anyone be some kind of Guardian-of-Doctrine when they don't immediately see a false dilemma presented on the very turf which they are supposedly a guardian of?
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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Marvin, I would like to think your reasoning is close to how this matter was actually resolved by the ancient peoples. However, I think you unintentionally bring an enlightened, human rights perspective to a collection of laws that were often brutal and peremptory in their everyday application.

  I don't disagree with that. As mentioned earlier, more than anything else punitive measure was determined by whether the woman was owned by a man (or ownership was promised, i.e., "engaged"). From a contemporary perspective the whole concept was practically barbaric! That said, what astounded me was that Mr. Guardian-Of-Doctrine Jackson didn't know this thing inside-out and realize a false dilemma was presented to him. The man has snake oil; but sharp he's not.
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  22

  Geoffrey Jackson's Amnesia at the Royal Commission!

  by The Searcher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  at 20:00 - 21:30 in his testimony, mr. geoffrey jackson - in answer to mr. stewart's question about the governing body claiming to be god's spokespersons - claimed that it would be presumptuous of them to say that they were the only spokespersons which god was using.

  mr. jackson doesn't seem to know what he and his fellow g.b.

  members - and the providers of his lifestyle, the wtbts - actually teach as "bible truth.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  The good thing, though, Marvin, is he has expressed his "view" on the matter under oath.
  In the context of the powers of the Royal Commission, his "view" paves the way for a subsequent policy shift within the organization.
  This demonstrates that sometimes the light gets brighter not due to "the holy spirit" but because secular authorities threaten penalties and public shaming.

  I could not agree more, and was glad to hear Mr. Jackson assert that elders SHOULD encourage victims and/or guardians to report these things.
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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Maybe the "circumstantial evidence" that is left out in this text is the woman's emotional condition itself, who can say...

  The most likely scenario I can see would be the accused having evidence of or on his person of a rape. Though the rape itself went unwitnessed by anyone other than the victim and perpetrator, had the perpetrator been seen, for instance, coming home in a state of emotional or physical dishevel, with wounds, or maybe with torn or even bloody clothing, and the coincidence of this was realized once the rape allegation was leveled, the person who made the observation might well have plied the person to ultimately, though reluctantly, admit what they did (either privately or publicly). Then there would be corroboration. But, then, the text seems more concerned with the woman's status (engaged or not engaged!!!) than the violence forced upon her!
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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  I believe all child abuse cases should be turned over to secular (and yes, "superior") authorities to be decided by professionals.

  I could not agree more.

  As for Angus and whether he knew he was taking a gamble with the text of Deut 22, I don't know one way or another. I do know that Mr. GOD ("guardian of doctrine") should certainly have been Johnny-on-the-spot picking put up the false dilemma. That he failed to see this and chose to respond as he did demonstrates incompetence. And he's among the chosen elite!!! Doesn't that make everyone feel warm and fuzzy?
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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Could you please elaborate on the last paragraph of your OP, Marvin? I' m having a hard job grasping the point you are making, especially how your point relates to the 2 witness rule.

  The two-witness rule Jackson was being questioned regarding is one that requires corroboration beyond allegation of a single witness.

  The text of Deut. 22 does not say the rapist put to death was executed based solely on a single person's (the victim's) allegation.
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  22

  Geoffrey Jackson's Amnesia at the Royal Commission!

  by The Searcher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  at 20:00 - 21:30 in his testimony, mr. geoffrey jackson - in answer to mr. stewart's question about the governing body claiming to be god's spokespersons - claimed that it would be presumptuous of them to say that they were the only spokespersons which god was using.

  mr. jackson doesn't seem to know what he and his fellow g.b.

  members - and the providers of his lifestyle, the wtbts - actually teach as "bible truth.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  On one hand Jackson laid claim to ignorance of certain policy matters, yet he freely issued an opinion that elders SHOULD encourage guardians of child victims to notify authorities of the alleged crime. This piece of opinion comes from a sitting Governing Body member, yet in relation to alleged sexual abuse of a child is nowhere to be found in policy positions put forth from Watchtower. Now isn't that just amazing.

  It's utter disgraceful that this can be so easily said when under summons to testify, yet until now this has not been properly conveyed as policy to local elders.
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  14

  Jackson on Deuteronomy 22 and "two witnesses"

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in his testimony before the royal commission geoffrey jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask jesus at this time.

  two things stand out to me about this piece of jackson's testimony.

  1. he said he could not ask jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  In his testimony before the Royal Commission Geoffrey Jackson said he did not have the answer to the question posed to him regarding Deuteronomy 22:25-27 and was unable to ask Jesus at this time.

  Two things stand out to me about this piece of Jackson's testimony.

  1. He said he could not ask Jesus.

  2. In his high capacity that he kept emphasizing over and over about about doctrinal guardianship and spiritual matters, his ineptness of something easily debunked from a logical scriptural perspective.

  Of not being able to ask, my wonder is whether Mr. Jackson believes in prayer!!! He said he could not ask Jesus. Why can't he ask Jesus in prayer?!!! More importantly, why has Mr. Jackson not already asked Jesus for an answer to this issue in prayer?!!! He is, after all, part of a supposed guardian of doctrine! What is keeping this man from asking Jesus?

  Of the issue put before him, the issue as presented represents a false dilemma. The dilemma is premised on a notion that a man accused by a woman of raping her in a field without witnesses would be put to death without any evidence other than the woman's accusation. The text does not say a man would be put to death based on the witness of a single person (the victim). It says a man would be put to death for raping a woman in a field where no one could see or hear what was going on other than the woman and the rapist. This does not suggest a man would be or, under Mosaic Law, could be put to death purely on the word of the woman alleging rape. The text at issue (Deut. 22:25-27) does not address what evidence would suffice to convict the criminal, or how that evidence could be obtained. It speaks only of the situation. It astounded me to listen to Jackson respond to this false dilemma without recognizing it as a false dilemma. For a would-be guardian of doctrine his skills of critical thinking are rusty to say the least.
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  18

  best ex JW sites

  by cobweb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i used to visit this site about ten years ago.

  i haven't come her in a long time.

  i have just recently started talking to a family member who is leaving the jws and i wanted to know what are the best sites available these days for finding out all the topics of information - failed prophecy, 1975, rutherford's drinking, russells tombstone - you know all of that kind of stuff.. back in the day there used to be a site run by a norwegian i think called kent.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  I recommend jwfacts
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  9

  Shocking development from Australian Royal Commission

  by Esse quam videri in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it is reported that elder kevin bowditch was so upset at the grilling he received at the arc that he has traveled to austin, texas to prepare for any future encounters with angus stewart.. we see from various stages of the interrogation his increasing anguish.

  he is reported as saying in private, '.. that's never going to happen again.

  i think i was hung up and left out to dry by the governing body.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Mr. Kevin better watch out. Them there womens in Texass are known to be pretty quick on that there draw.